This episode is part two of a two part conversation we had with Lead Technician Ryan Campbell. 

In this second half, Ryan and Aaron discuss the shortage of trucking technicians, the career paths for younger techs who might be entering the industry and the new technologies inside the truck. 

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Michael Clements:
Welcome to Trucking for Millennials, where we engage with the future of freight happening now. My name is Michael Clements.

Aaron Dunn:
And I'm Aaron Dunn and we're here to help trucking and logistics professionals stay up to date and ahead of the curve. as our industry evolves.

Michael Clements:
We're connecting with every step of the supply chain as part of our mission to increase transparency and provide world-class freight solutions.

Aaron Dunn:
Hey, thanks for listening to Trucking for Millennials. This is Aaron, digital media specialist for PDQ America. This is part two of diagnosing the truck and trailer with lead technician Ryan Campbell. In this part, Ryan and I discuss the technician shortage. We go over why that might be the case, why there's a shortage, what could be done to help remedy it. We talk a little bit about the future and new technologies entering the truck and we also discuss a little bit about truck drivers and how in addition to everything else, a technician does and also customer service reps. Value-packed episode, hope you enjoy, don't forget to leave a review. Let us know what you think about this episode or any other episode. Follow us on social media at PDQ America and we'll talk to you soon.

Aaron Dunn:
Got you. One of the articles from transport topics talked about the technician shortage and we were talking about it just earlier before we started recording. So from the article it says, "The TechForce Foundation estimates that the heavy duty diesel service industry will need to fill more than 4,300 new technician positions in 2019 alone, as well as more than 25,000 replacement positions. So apparently it looks as if they're on track to hit the 4,300 in 2019. It says, "Projections indicate the number of new positions needed, not including replacements due to retirement, is falling from about 4,300 in 2019 to zero by 2022." So apparently there's new technicians entering the market, which is good. However, during the same period, replacements needed due to retirements is projected to hold steady at around 25,000 through 2022. So kind of saying the same thing twice but get a good understanding of it. The question is why? So they dove into a little bit in the article but for you, what would you say the reason is why it's harder to get younger people in and even as it's-

Ryan Campbell:
How do you get the younger people to want to do it.

Aaron Dunn:
Exactly, exactly. And there's going to be enough new applicants but it's going to get into a position which is similar to what a lot of people say in the industry of the truck driver shortage, which is the retirements are going to far outpace the amount of new entrants that are necessary. So why do you think that is before we get into kind of possible solutions?

Ryan Campbell:
They don't want to work. I have friends that own companies and he was saying he has a hard time hiring somebody because they want to do that eight hours a day. I don't think I've ever been at a job where I've worked eight hours a day. There's not an eight-hour day for a mechanic or technician. It's you do the job till it's done. There may be days where you work eight hours, but most of the time you're working 10, 12, 16 hours a day. Especially out here in Texas, I mean the oil field guys, they're working 16, 18-hour days. And try and have a young say 20 year- old. Say, "Hey, I want to come in and I want to be a technician." He goes and talks to a guy and the guy says, "I work 18 hours a day," and 20-year old says, "I want to get 12 hours of sleep at night."

Ryan Campbell:
I think part of the problem is they don't want to work. And I don't think enough places are pushing the fact that we do need people to do that. Starting from high school, trades are lost. And you have those people pushing, "Degrees, degrees." Don't get me wrong, degrees are great. You can go to trade schools, WYO tech, UTI, something like that. You can get a degree in diesel. I looked into it, it was going to cost me $80,000 to go do it. It's a lot of money.

Aaron Dunn:
That's a lot of money.

Ryan Campbell:
And how do you come up with $80,000? I don't know what the cost is now, I've heard it's gone down to about half of that. But when these people are getting out from these schools, they're wanting top dollar. They say, "I have a degree, I need to make the most money I can."

Aaron Dunn:
Well because, and then you're mounted with a bunch of debt. So even if you do choose the trade route instead of the college route and say, "Maybe it seems like that person would really be wanting to do it."

Ryan Campbell:
Absolutely, and the problem is that somebody has got to start somewhere. You can't come in somewhere and start at the top. You got to get those years of experience. And I think a lot of people not wanting to do it is they look and they say, "Well that's going to take too long," or, "I'm not going to make enough money." And with the way that it is now, people need to make money. And this younger generation is coming in saying, "No, that don't make enough money for me." Because they do have to start pushing a broom at a shop, be in that shop cleanup boy or whatever the case may be.

Aaron Dunn:
Yeah, yeah. Earn your stripes in a way.

Ryan Campbell:
Absolutely.

Aaron Dunn:
Is the career of a technician, is it still possible outside of a trade school like that? Could you just kind of work your way up and learn from peers and that kind of thing and eventually earn your stripes into that top pay?

Ryan Campbell:
You're looking at them.

Aaron Dunn:
Okay. Yeah, I was going to ask and the only reason I asked that is because in today's context, just talking about how trucks have gotten more complicated, is it too much of a learning curve to really get that?

Ryan Campbell:
Not if the person wants it. If they want it and they want to learn it, they're going to shadow that best mechanic in that shop or whoever it may be. They're going to shadow him, and they're going to learn. And you can't tell me somebody who's not going to learn something. I mean, just talking with somebody, you're going to learn something.

Aaron Dunn:
I'm learning.

Ryan Campbell:
So being able to shadow somebody, you're going to learn. And if they want it enough, they're going to push for it and they're going to ask those questions. The only stupid question is the question not asked. If you don't ask, you're not going to know. And even electronics, I'm learning. I work side by side with dealerships and I'll talk with the technicians there and they'll say, "Hey," this and this and this, "Well come here, let me show you something real quick." And they'll show me, absolutely.

Ryan Campbell:
And a lot of people don't want to help nowadays too. They say, "No, you slow me down." And agreed dealerships, they're flat rate. That's the way most dealerships work is flat rate, you only get paid for what the job pays. So why would you want to have somebody tag along that slowing you down. The faster you work, the more money you make. You're about making money. So it's hard to do that, you got to get into these private shops to let these people come in and see what it's like. "Hey, go with this guy for a week, see what you can learn. If you like it, cool. If not, then keep pushing the broom."

Aaron Dunn:
Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. It's almost as if the system of how the dealerships might work and that kind of thing don't incentivize the education in the more trade aspect, the apprenticeship aspect.

Ryan Campbell:
They do when you come out of a trade school. Dealerships are known for picking up guys out of trade schools. I mean, you go to a college, I mean college has worked with businesses.

Aaron Dunn:
Yep, that's the pipeline essentially.

Ryan Campbell:
Absolutely. And that's how they pull their guys, or their technicians and... like me going into a dealership, they're probably not even going to look at me. Because I didn't come from a trade school. But, and I mean, I'm sure you know this, a lot of the work is not done in a dealership. I would say, I mean, unless you're a large company, but you've got a small trucking company, they're going to look for the local shop that's reputable, that can work on their equipment quick, and get it done and fix it in a timely manner. So yeah, dealerships are great and they have very good technicians, but also these trucking companies are wanting to go to the local shops. And these local shops have to have good mechanics too.

Aaron Dunn:
Yeah, so it's kind of a balance and it seems like there's multiple avenues for somebody who'd want to have a career as a technician, it's kind of like you want to kind of go into the dealership route more of that style of place, maybe, and correct me if I'm wrong, it seems like the education might be the way to go. But it seems as if if you're wanting to stay in more of a localized area, a kind of rural area where we are, it might be, it's a viable path to do the kind of the apprenticeship route and just kind of learn.

Ryan Campbell:
Absolutely. And you're still going to learn a lot. You're not going to be a lower level technician because you didn't go to the tech school and you didn't go to work for a dealership and stuff like that. But the dealerships have their own schools. I don't know if you knew that Peterbilt its own school, actually here in Texas. I have a friend that went to it that works for a dealership. And I shadowed him and I learned so much from him. I still talk to him to this day. And it's good to know those kinds of people and know how the dealerships work. But if you're going to go to a trade school, you're most likely going to get picked up by dealership. That's usually the route most people go. But going in and as a just, oh you want to learn it, private way's going to do it.

Aaron Dunn:
Yeah, you'll start learning fast for sure.

Ryan Campbell:
Yeah, absolutely.

Aaron Dunn:
So kind of summarizing what we've talked about so far, just upon the career trajectory of aspiring technician, what would you recommend? I mean, you have friends that kind of went to educational trade school route and then you yourself just went through the school of hard knocks. What would you recommend to somebody who might be considering it, maybe thought about it before. What would you say?

Ryan Campbell:
I would say if they've already done some of it, try and get a local job. See where you stand and how much you want to learn, how much you know, if it's something you want to do. Because it's not for everybody, you may think you want to do something and you go in there and do it. Worst thing is going and paying for a college degree that you don't want to use.

Aaron Dunn:
Yeah, very true.

Ryan Campbell:
I mean wasting $40,000 and you go and get a job at a dealership and you say, "Wow, I don't like this." So try it, try and talk to a local shop. Young kids nowadays, 16 years old, they go into a local shop, they say, "Hey, I'm interested in this stuff, would you let me push your broom around here. Kind of lean on a couple of these guys and just see if I like it." Most shops are going to say, "Yeah, be a parts runner," or something like that. Realistically, technicians don't really start until they're after 21. Just due to the fact that you can't get a CDL.

Aaron Dunn:
Wait, so you have to have a CDL to be a technician?

Ryan Campbell:
You do not but what if you want to test drive a vehicle?

Aaron Dunn:
Got it.

Ryan Campbell:
You can't find the problem if you can't drive a vehicle.

Aaron Dunn:
Yeah, I never thought about that.

Ryan Campbell:
I mean, you've got a driver-

Aaron Dunn:
That type of regulation could be real hamper too.

Ryan Campbell:
Exactly. So I mean you got a driver comes in and says he has this problem and he's saying it's going clunk, clunk, clunk. What does clunk, clunk, clunk mean? Drive it on private property. But I mean, sometimes you just have to get out on the road, and not having a CDL could hinder you from actually finding the actual problem. A technician wants to find the root cause of the problem. So...

Aaron Dunn:
Yeah, in our conversation I've been thinking about how really you're a problem solver is what you are like at the bare root kind of at it's basic level. But I guess all work is some element of problem solving if you think about it, but at the same time it's really like the truck and trailer combo is this really advanced jigsaw puzzle. It's not just problem solving in one way, you're problem solving like 3D chess-type problems.

Ryan Campbell:
In about 70 feet by 14 feet tall?

Aaron Dunn:
Exactly. It's a 70 feet by 14 foot tall chessboard and it's up to you to really diagnose that one little thing, which is, thinking of it at that scale and really getting underneath the truck in that way. In thinking about it, it's really like, wow, that's a pretty complex, but it has to be pretty rewarding when you finally get it to where you're like, "It's cranking, it's [crosstalk 00:15:34]."

Ryan Campbell:
Whatever that problem was, you've actually fixed it. And sometimes you don't know if you fixed it or not. You tried multiple things, you did your testing. You don't know until that truck goes out on the road and you hope to God it doesn't, you hope to God it comes back.

Aaron Dunn:
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Cool man. Well, I really appreciate your time. Just kind of thinking ahead, I wanted to ask your opinion on looking to the future, the future in the industry and the new technology is coming and you're like, "They're talking about getting rid of side mirrors and putting cameras in there and all kinds of stuff." So what do you think about autonomous trucking, the camera systems that are involved? How do you think about where it is now and just the technology in a truck, maybe what excites you, but also curious to know what you think about what's coming around the corner.

Ryan Campbell:
Well, right now, trucks basically drive themselves. You may not think it, there's a program that goes in trucks called Bendix Wingman. You can put it on cruise control, somebody gets in front of you, slams breaks on. It will pace cars. These ads for these Nissans and everything you see him on TV, you go "Whoa!"

Aaron Dunn:
I drove one not too long ago. [crosstalk 00:16:51] car.

Ryan Campbell:
Revolutionary and it pace the car in front of you. Trucks are already doing it, all of my trucks do. Drivers hate it.

Aaron Dunn:
See I had no idea that they did that right now, yeah.

Ryan Campbell:
I mean you can have your cruise control on it, 65 miles an hour. A car gets on the freeway in front of you and it's only doing 50 it already knows and it's slowing you down. So they're already driving themselves for the most part. But as far as going with cameras as mirrors and all that stuff, I don't see it. I think they'll try, I don't think it'll happen. If it does, there'll be more accidents. And that's one of the problems with truck drivers is younger generation has a lot of accidents. Your driving record as a driver is your resume.

Ryan Campbell:
And it's hard to say that it'll be bad because you never know unless you try. I think they'll try, something might work, something might be great and revolutionary. But some stuff might not. I hope some stuff does help, absolutely. I hate having to replace hoods and fenders and you're hauling a quarter of a million dollar trailer, hazardous material and they took off the rear fender and rear bumper and everything and it's be nice if drivers drove better.

Aaron Dunn:
Yeah, regular non-CDL holders. [inaudible 00:00:18:26].

Ryan Campbell:
Everybody.

Aaron Dunn:
But everybody period. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's interesting. I didn't, I mean I'm not surprised I guess that that type of technology, the kind of advanced cruise control type stuff is being used today. But I don't think about it when I'm on the road, I don't think about that a big truck is going to have that. I don't know if that makes me feel more secure or less.

Ryan Campbell:
Well here's one. It's called lane departure. Well, what would you think lane departure is?

Aaron Dunn:
Lane departure is when your vehicle detects another vehicle in your blind spot?

Ryan Campbell:
In a way.

Aaron Dunn:
Or actually lane departure would be when you depart a lane, right?

Ryan Campbell:
Exactly.

Aaron Dunn:
Yeah, so like when you depart, I'm thinking of when I see in some of the just consumer vehicles, the little LED light, that's why I think-

Ryan Campbell:
The blind spot monitor.

Aaron Dunn:
The blind spot monitor, yeah, exactly. That's what I was thinking of visually. But lane departure's, you kind of start when you swaying.

Ryan Campbell:
When you start to sway, when you hit that line, a lot of trucks nowadays, the speakers inside will start buzzing, letting you know that you hit that line. So it's to keep drivers awake. That's probably one of the biggest reasons they put them in. The drivers are falling asleep and they start swaying towards a lane and they start hitting that stripe and it starts buzzing. You come back and you hit the other stripe, it'll start buzzing. It's a good feature. Drivers hate it.

Aaron Dunn:
Okay, so the second time you said that these are features that are geared for safety. Why do drivers hate those two things?

Ryan Campbell:
Because the drivers that are, for the most part on the road, are older generation. They don't like change. And not only do they not like changes, now with these ELDs, every time that happens, it logs a report into the ELDs. So the companies are seeing what these drivers are doing. They're hitting the brakes too hard, it records an event. You get to that line too many times, it records an event. You can lose your safety bonus off of that kind of stuff, because they consider it unsafe driving. And the drivers, they don't like a computer trying to tell them what to do, they feel like they should be in control. And in a sense they should be. But in a sense, it going to keep them from falling asleep.

Aaron Dunn:
Yeah, in a sense a computer is programmed to keep that control better than a fallible human is the argument, a lot of times. But I can see where, and I've heard from drivers multiple times just through conversations like this is that, the ELD, it's like always watching, it's kind of this like over your shoulder feeling of like and that just compounds the stress that you feel. I know that if I had my boss looking over my shoulder every single minute of the day, monitoring how efficient I was at doing X, Y and Z task, it would just be, it would be a drag. Not only a drag, just really almost demoralizing in a way.

Ryan Campbell:
But then you talked to other drivers and they love them because they don't have to run a log book no more, the computer does it. You go and your 30-minute break, I'm just going to stop here. It tells you what to do, it tells you when to do it. So the drivers do start to get more complacent about their job. Well, you start to get more complacent now you have to have other features that are helping other problems. So ELDs and monitors to keep you on the road, it's all that safety. And then that's one of the biggest things for trucks, it's safety. I mean, you're talking 80,000 pounds. 80,000 pounds all on the road, they don't stop fast, they don't go fast, they don't turn fast. And it's all safety, keeping everybody safe. Not only the truck driver, it's everybody else around it. And a lot of people don't think about when they're driving beside that person, beside that big truck, what could happen?

Aaron Dunn:
Yeah, well I would actually say the reverse. I think a lot of people think about that. What could happen, but they don't think about the human in there either. They just say, "Oh, this guy's really annoying. This big thing, it might kill me."

Ryan Campbell:
He's only doing 65 miles an hour, "Get out of the way." Whoa! A lot of companies regulate their trucks. 65, 63, 67, whatever the case may be. Drivers hate that too.

Aaron Dunn:
Yeah, but it's getting around talking about the balance between effective and safe use of technology and the balance between, okay well, that means I have to make some adjustments to how I do my job on the daily basis. It's going to cover for some things and make some things easier and then other things like, "Oh now because of this I have to do this." And it's just shifting the job slightly and in one way or another and it's always going to be that kind of balance.

Ryan Campbell:
So I mean as far as future goes, computer-wise, new technology coming out, it is going to make it more difficult for technicians because they have to learn this kind of stuff. Because they'll come out with the new truck and not tell you what's wrong with it, not tell you what it has on it and you have to figure it out. There's no training courses that these little DVD or MP3 or whatever they send out with a truck saying, "Hey, this is all the new stuff we put on the truck." They don't tell you that kind of stuff. So I mean, it's going to be hard for technicians to learn all this new stuff when it does start to really change. You look at how far we've come from 2008 to now, trucks have just changed dramatically. And it's changing for drivers. And it doesn't only affect a driver that's driving that truck, it affects the technician because the technician has to deal with that driver. We're not only mechanics or technicians, we're customer service.

Aaron Dunn:
Yeah, yeah. Customer service is a whole another realm and truck drivers are not the-

Ryan Campbell:
Easiest people to work with.

Aaron Dunn:
Yeah, that's probably the best way to put it. And yeah, I can imagine the vocal opinions that you get on a regular basis, especially as the new technology happens and you're the middleman between understanding what these problems are, why they're important and all that kind of stuff and having to kind of explain it as you learn it sometimes I imagine. So, man, you do a really important job and you're not thanked enough, so thank you. We appreciate you and the work that you do.

Ryan Campbell:
Appreciate that.

Aaron Dunn:
Any other advice that you'd like to share or anything like that? Any other thing you just kind of, that's been top of mind in your line of work that you want to talk about?

Ryan Campbell:
As far as mechanics or technicians and stuff go... Companies... There's multiple aspects as I feel why we're shortage of mechanics. Nowadays they're lazy. It just is. They feel they're entitled for as much money as the guys that have put in the time. They don't want to work and these companies aren't wanting to pay top dollar for these good technicians that are coming in. You can have very, very, very bright people coming in and they want to make top dollar but you also have to start at the bottom. So-

Aaron Dunn:
Yeah, it's an interesting balance between the, you do deep knowledge work that deserves to be paid for, it would be compensated. It's what do they call it, high skill labor and in so many ways, but it still has this kind of old guard, low skill grease monkey type mentality on the end. And that's so weird because those two things clash considerably. But you're both sides of the coin at the same time.

Ryan Campbell:
But then you got the company in the middle that is wanting the high level technician but their pay is down here.

Aaron Dunn:
Yeah, pay is like a grease monkey mechanic.

Ryan Campbell:
Exactly, and you're not going to get a technician with a grease monkey mechanic. So pay, everybody wants to make money. You can't make money without putting in the work, and you also have to have the companies that are willing to pay. I'm not saying they need to make $200,000 a year, but you can make a good six figures being a mechanic, you absolutely can. And when you do find those technicians, very, very good technicians, usually those companies hold them. They will not let them go. So pay's a big one. People want to make money.

Aaron Dunn:
Yeah, so I guess it's kind of like people need to learn to work harder, earn their stripes, but also understand your place in the-

Ryan Campbell:
In the industry.

Aaron Dunn:
Yeah.

Ryan Campbell:
Yeah, absolutely.

Aaron Dunn:
Cool. Awesome man. Well, I appreciate your time. I'm sure this won't be the last conversation we have, but I think a lot of people are going to get some value off this [inaudible 00:00:28:09].

Ryan Campbell:
Well, thank you. [inaudible 00:28:10].

Aaron Dunn:
Cool.

Katie:
Hello, this is Katie from PDQ America. I wanted to invite you to join our newsletter, The Transmitter. If you'd like to receive the latest trucking news, industry insights and other valuable information every week, visit go.pdqamerica.com/podcast.